My sleep cycle is a bit out of whack at the moment, partly from the last few weeks' practice and partly because the clocks went back. I genuinely thought it was 4 am which is a good time as any to wake up and once in the study noted it was 3 am. Since I was up, I read some, wrote some and went back. :-)
Thanks.
Voracious Blog Reader
· 2 years ago
Went back? You mean to bed?
Now, thats a common act 8)
Voracious Blog Reader
Nita
· 2 years ago
One of your longer posts...and you have raised many points. I find the first part of your post very interesting. Why women have children. It's a very deep question and I wonder how many people would have children if there was no what you call 'genetic vanity.' In India it is a combination of genetic vanity, the insecurity of living out one's old age without grown up kids, and ofcourse societal pressure. Very few may do it solely because of their strong desire to have kids for the sake of nurturing them. I think many may not even be aware of the complex motives of having children. Few of us may even think very hard about this subject. Talking of myself, my desire to have kids came before my desire to get married. This was different from most girls my age and I always wondered why I felt this. I felt this even when I was 18, much before I had a romantic relationship going. btw I had fantasies of adopting kids from different countries like Angelina Jolie did and therefore I understand her even if most people make fun of her. But I never lived out this dream, and anyway, this dream changed very rapidly as I realised what it entailed! One thing I can say. When I had kids I have enjoyed being a mother. If I had not been able to conceive I would have adopted. As to why I wanted the kids, I am not sure. Is it instinct, a strong maternal instinct? I don't know, all I know is that I loved every minute of it all. I was so into it that I must have read a hundred books on how to be a good mother, how to increase your child's IQ etc and the whole motherhood thing simply consumed me...but I guess that's typical me. I get consumed by everything, by whatever I do! Right now it's my blog. :)
shefaly
· 2 years ago
@ VBR: Yes, indeed, went back to bed and up now.
"Now, thats a common act" - not sure I know what you mean... :-/
You mean many people do this? I suppose they do. Er, what?
@ Nita: Thanks for your note. I should probably put long post alert on top :-)
The reasons you cite are the reasons that I have found impossible to elicit from people. So you are exceptional in many ways.
For instance, most of us living so far from parents should know that the utility of children in respect of old age care is a fast-dwindling case of hopefulness, rather than the reality. Societal pressure - indeed expectation - is probably a great factor in many cases, but giving in to it is a highly individual thing. Maternal instinct is often cited but some of the most horrid people I have known have kids whereas some of the most affectionate and genuinely loving people have chosen not to (may be their logic is that they cannot bear to leave their children behind in this terrible world!).
That "genetic vanity" thing is my hypothesis and I deliberately word it like that because frankly for some people, one has to look and wonder "why on earth...?". Anyway it sounds mean so before I get brickbats from all sorts, I should stop.
It is interesting how you note how dreams are tempered by reality. I read a funny thing yesterday:
Le rêve est un tunnel qui passe sous la réalité. C'est un égout d'eau claire, mais c'est un égout. (The not-so-romantic translation: The dream is a tunnel that passes under reality. It is a sewer of clear water, but it is a sewer.)
Funny, eh? Cutting, definitely.
I wrote this at some 3:30am. I am sure some of this will get edited - not for length, just grammar etc in the day light. For now I need really to wake up and start my morning.
Thanks again.
Voracious Blog Reader
· 2 years ago
Many people, including me, go to bed for a second nap after getting up.
In my case, sometimes, its after having my cup of coffee. :(
Voracious Blog Reader
shefaly
· 2 years ago
VBR: I see. I never go for a second anything - nap, food, running lap... :-)
So this was unusual for me. But the time was so odd, I gave up and went back to bed.
Anonymous
· 2 years ago
I have been asked this question earlier why I want a baby. At that time I was not prepared with an answer but later when I really thought about it, I know that was what I always wanted - a loving husband and kids. My childhood was not great and being an observer of constant fights at home, my childish heart was nurturing a dream of having a family of my own where there are no fights and no hate and that when I will have kids I will provide a peaceful atmosphere so that they can achieve their dreams and cultivate their hobbies into careers if they wish which I was not able to do as I feared my family would never allow it.
I wish to have my own child because somewhere in my heart I want my dad's genes in it. My dad is intelligent, practical and very hardworking, in spite of his troubled marriage knows what is it to keep the family together which in today's date even I fail to abide by it at times. I wish to have my better half's genes in them as he is the only person I've met who has patience, loving nature and he also believes in keeping a family together. My mother is a very strong lady. I believe at least some of these qualities will definitely be inherited in them.
Adopting a child is a much bigger and a conscious decision than having one's own child. In case of blood relation, the relation is defined even before you were born but in case of adoption the relation is defined after one is born. I've my own fears regarding adoption. I've read so many true stories where the adopted child still searches for his/her real parents even after realizing how much his/her adopted parents love them. This will definitely raise a question in my mind what went wrong in the upbringing of the child that he/she is still searching for their real parents. The other fear is how will either party take towards being denied or denying certain acts and not being obeyed. In blood relation, even in anger you cannot deny the relationship but in case of adoption one can easily deny the relation be it the parent or the child and walk out of it. I've another fear - fear which I am not sure about till I adopt a child and the child develops his/her own character. If one has watched "Kabhi Kushi Kabhi Ghum"- Amitabh B adopted SRK and then he accepts him to obey the family traditions and values. But when SRK marries a girl against his wishes, he shuts him out of his house and life as well. But ofcourse, you cannot say that these fears are applicable everywhere. It all depends on the attitude, behavior or nature of parents and the adopted child. But then I'm not aware of these answers when I am adopting one. I suggest only a person with a loving heart and a forgiving one can only have the courage to adopt a child. Once my sibling asked me will I adopt a child if I'm unable to give birth, I immediately said I will fund someone's expenses and education throughout my life but I don't have a heart to adopt. I know I'm selfish but I've faced so much problems in my life that taking risks in my life as far as emotions are concerned is out of question now for me.
Lucia
· 2 years ago
Many thought provoking comments, as I have come to expect from you:-). Thanks for the points to reflect upon.
Rambler
· 2 years ago
Shefaly. I feel our generation should relook at adoption. I have written abotu it lots of times, and I am afraid I am going to jinx it. Anyways, why the hell people are so afraid of it, more importantly why is it so difficult to adopt.
I agree with your take on women being suspected mostly for inability to conceive, If you sit through a meeting of elders in family, you almost turn insane, and I am really surprised that its mostly women in the family who suspect women.
Ryan Holiday
· 2 years ago
It's not a view of poverty. It is a fact. Poor families have on average more daughters while richer families have more boys. Not because it helps them economically but evolutionarily. If you're rich and you have a boy, he will on average, father more children than if you're poor and you have a boy. Conversely, if you're poor and have a daughter she will have more children than if you were rich. It's not an argument. It is a statistical fact.
shefaly
· 2 years ago
@ Anonymous: Thanks for your long note. Alas, as far as taking emotional risks is concerned, you have already taken the first step by falling in love with a person and marrying him!
Of course, I cannot argue with any of the points you raise, but some things you say do reinforce my point about "genetic vanity".
I also think you are being naive if you think "In blood relation, even in anger you cannot deny the relationship but in case of adoption one can easily deny the relation be it the parent or the child and walk out of it". I daresay you need to see it once yourself :-)
You say: "I’ve read so many true stories where the adopted child still searches for his/her real parents even after realizing how much his/her adopted parents love them.". Having a child is above all an act of unselfishness. And having seen a lot of the world, I can say with confidence that plenty of biological children turn their backs on parents too.
Curiously I made a point about step-parents in passing. Given such strong views about biological children, your views are on step-children and step-parents are something I would like to hear about.
Thanks for reading.
@ Lucia: Thanks for your note. DO share some of your reflections :-)
@ Rambler: Thanks. Why not adoption? See the remark by Anonymous above for a range of reasons.
As for sitting with elders, thank God I do not have to and when I do, I am not a standard issue Indian to sit through it quietly. I speak up when I see something patently wrong.
@ Ryan: Thanks for your note. Since I am not aware of any statistics of this nature, I framed your comment as a view of poverty.
It will be great if you can share some of those stats so I can understand your perspective better. Because at the moment, I do not know what you are trying to say.
However I do think universally, the daughters' progeny neither carries the family name forward nor can be "claimed" for any economic value.
If you come back and share some of these statistics, it will be great. Thanks.
Jackie
· 2 years ago
As a voluntarily childless woman, I read your post (and Nita's) with great interest. There are some women who are Natural Born mothers - they just love children. Not me. Sure, I'm a great auntie and mentor, but having my own? Knew as a child I never wanted children.
Those who want kids, by all means have them, or adopt them. Some should never have kids - after all, abused and, sadly, murdered children are overwhelmingly committed by mothers, aren't they?
My own mother hated being a mother. She is wonderful in many ways, but I think if birth control was easily available in her day, she may have been childless herself. But my father just loved parenting - doted on us, taught us, supervised us. Natural born Father.
At least it is no longer a shameful thing to say you don't want children, at least here. Maybe in my next life, I will have some maternal instincts.
Thanks
rambodoc
· 2 years ago
Very intelligent post, Shefaly, though I must confess to not clicking on the links to most of the posts, comments or the philosopher's absurd-sounding assertion (viz, no right to bear kids, etc.). I have to repeat what I said in Nita's blog that if a 100% of the women of a society (reductio ad absurdum) choose to be surrogate mothers, so effing what? Why should this be anyone's business? This call to legislate human behavior is another example of social engineering, another feature of a control State, acting holier than ever before.
shefaly
· 2 years ago
@ Jackie: Welcome to my blog. As a cool auntie myself, I agree with most of what you say. When I submitted my thesis, one of my nephews said: "Hmm, to be cooler than your auntie, that's a tough one!" Hah! :-)
My point of debate is if people claim to have those maternal instincts, why are they so narrowly focused on biological children? Even at great cost to their own health? As a dominantly 'ask why' kind of person, I am eternally curious and my general conclusion is that people fear asking themselves this question for fear of exposing their social conditioning and their own prejudices.
@ Rambodoc: Thank you. All the intelligence is contained in the post so I guess it is ok if you did not click through ;-) No, seriously I try to capture the essence from the link when I cite it but keen ones can click on and read more.
I agree with the so-effing-what bit. Indeed if a 100% of women in society choose to be childless, er, no society soon, eh? :-)
By definition, regulation comes in where market forces fail to keep resource allocation optimal or where rents realisation can sort the "problem" of inoptimality. Nita's contention is that where information (or economic) asymmetries exist i.e. the woman is poor and uneducated and does not understand the risks of repeat pregnancies, regulation should exist for the protection of the vendor (not the emptor). This situation is not dissimilar to repetitive selling of blood or selling of organs, except repeat pregnancy can be more long drawn and physically and emotionally draining.
Thanks for reading.
Amit
· 2 years ago
This call to legislate human behavior is another example of social engineering, another feature of a control State, acting holier than ever before.
Except when it comes to torture and capital punishment. ;) :D
Vivek Khadpekar
· 2 years ago
Shefaly,
//Indeed if a 100% of women in society choose to be childless, er, no society soon, eh?//
I'm not so sure. Science has an annoying way of coming up with solutions. So we would probably have human beings capable of spontaneous reproduction (the "swayambhu" concept. Or they could evolve to a point where they could live meaningfully well past 100, 150, 200 years. Or both.
Amit,
//...a control State, acting holier than ever before...//
(with the usual apology for not managing diacritical marks): Vous oubliez -- l'etat c'est moi; et vous, et nous, et tous ...
There are other elements in social constructivist argument, of course, of how Science and its miscommunication is informing (or misinforming?) young women about what to expect from their biological clocks.
The assumptions in both the two above threads are very different, which is what my comment alluded to.
Thanks.
wishtobeanon...
· 2 years ago
I have sons and we really wanted daughters. But that does not mean that we do not love our kids. Now, I cannot imagine how I would have brought up a daughter. At the same time, I still have a desire to have a daughter and I don't really care if she is of my blood or not. Our wish is to adopt, but the only obstacle would be the legal hassles and the attitude of immediate relatives and society!
Amit
· 2 years ago
Vous oubliez — l’etat c’est moi; et vous, et nous, et tous …
Er...Vivek. My knowledge of French is limited to "Voulez-vous coucher avec moi?" (no that's not an invitation) ;) ("You forgot - and me, and you and we all??" something like that?) I was actually pulling rambo d's leg regarding another comment on another post.
shefaly
· 2 years ago
WishToBeAnonymous (WTBA):
Thanks for your note and for sharing your views, and welcome to my blog!
I think adoption is made difficult in all countries, keeping in mind the child's welfare, which entails asking a range of what-if questions and obtaining more than satisfactory answers to them. But I do think it is nice that you have at least considered the idea.
You bring up an interesting point: the nosy relatives and neighbours. For them, alas, neither science nor regulation has any 'cure'. :-(
Thanks again.
Vivek Khadpekar
· 2 years ago
Amit,
Without any intention to broaden the horizons :-) of your French, my comment was merely a reaction to your use of the word "State". Its essence lay in the expression (attributed to Louis XIV) which I quoted, "l'etat c'est moi" (I am the State), and extended to include "... and you, and all of us ... ". Incidentally, "vous oubliez" is strictly the present tense, though in this instance I guess it is all right to translate it as the past tense. In fact it would have been more natural if I had said "n'oubliez pas [que]...".
Amit
· 2 years ago
Vivek, thanks for the explanation, and I welcome any and all attempts to broaden my horizons when it comes to French (and Bengali) language. :) I think the "blockquote" tag is to blame for the confusion here. "State" is rambo-d's favorite "them" (of 'us-and-them,' or rather 'me-and-them' fame), not mine. :)
shefaly
· 2 years ago
Amit: Sorry to butt into your conversation with Vivek..
I first learnt French at l'Alliance Francaise in Calcutta, from a Bengali teacher who was very good. And one of his favourite pastimes was to corner us and tell us things about comparative literature in Bengali and French! Somehow to this day, in the big classification system in my brain, Bengali and French sit snuggled together. No rhyme or reason and never explored any linguistic basis for it either.. :-)
Vivek Khadpekar
· 2 years ago
Ha-ha! Shefaly, welcome to the group of those that struggle with diacritical marks -- the cedilla in your case -- in response boxes.
Your slotting of Bangla and French together strikes me as apt for another reason, too. I admire the native speakers of both languages for their pride in their own tongues, and the way they coolly put other-language imperialists (meaning Hindi and English respectively) in their place.
Alice Bachini-Smith
· 1 year ago
Reasons to have children is a very interesting idea. My impression is that most people who have children don't think about it in a rational kind of way very much at all! It could be the only decision of such life-changing impact to which people routinely apply almost no reasoning at all!
There are possibly reasons for that lack of reasoning too (um, sorry if that sounds incredibly confusing...)- social conditioning that leads to us making an *assumption* instead, often at quite an early age; and the nature of the decision, specifically its total irrevocability, its often unimaginably huge and traumatic life-changing impact, which we know will be massive but have very little idea how to plan for in advance. In other words, we often regard it as almost an essential, obvious ambition, like finding a life-partner or wanting to have a satisfying job; and before doing it, we are extremely ignorant about how almost everything will be after we have done it.
Both of those definitely applied to me!
But a third reason for the lack of reasoning is the apparently very high satisfaction levels among those who have taken the plunge, including those who hardly planned it at all. They nearly always say it enriched their life, and express positivity about their decision. This is very unusual considering everything above!
I've pondered all of the above and why it might be so quite often, as most of my close women friends from school and university are childless, in fact I'm the odd one out of my group. But they "ended up" that way due to not having life-partners through their twenties and some way into their thirties, in most cases (oddly, all partnered up after then. No idea how totally unrepresentative this bunch may be.)
Anyway, I don't have any answers about why or when or whether, and I out this down to the massiveness of the subject, with all its implications. Certainly, how and whether one parents arouses stronger (and potentially more divisive) emotions among people than most other subjects I can think of with the possible exception of war-politics.
All very interesting though- thanks for directing me to this post!
notfromaroundhere
· 1 year ago
Great article on IVF and the question of "is there a right to reproduce?"
I personally think it's almost all society that builds into women's minds that we are worth nothing if we do not choose to mother a child. It's the way we force women to continue to do something that is quite hard work and thankless when they now have the option to do other things. I think that many parents just say it's wonderful because the peer pressure is such that saying "yeah, don't really like it, wish I hadn't have done it, would rather not make that mistake again" is just impossible!
99ppp
· 1 year ago
Excellent points, Shefaly couldn't agree more. As we (hopefully) move away from patriarchy, I believe more women may see greater options for themselves.
As a side point, you've got a great blog here, and a good addition to my blogroll. :)
All Comments
Good Morning.
Voracious Blog Reader
Good morning.
My sleep cycle is a bit out of whack at the moment, partly from the last few weeks' practice and partly because the clocks went back. I genuinely thought it was 4 am which is a good time as any to wake up and once in the study noted it was 3 am. Since I was up, I read some, wrote some and went back. :-)
Thanks.
Now, thats a common act 8)
Voracious Blog Reader
I find the first part of your post very interesting.
Why women have children. It's a very deep question and I wonder how many people would have children if there was no what you call 'genetic vanity.' In India it is a combination of genetic vanity, the insecurity of living out one's old age without grown up kids, and ofcourse societal pressure. Very few may do it solely because of their strong desire to have kids for the sake of nurturing them. I think many may not even be aware of the complex motives of having children. Few of us may even think very hard about this subject.
Talking of myself, my desire to have kids came before my desire to get married. This was different from most girls my age and I always wondered why I felt this. I felt this even when I was 18, much before I had a romantic relationship going. btw I had fantasies of adopting kids from different countries like Angelina Jolie did and therefore I understand her even if most people make fun of her. But I never lived out this dream, and anyway, this dream changed very rapidly as I realised what it entailed!
One thing I can say. When I had kids I have enjoyed being a mother. If I had not been able to conceive I would have adopted. As to why I wanted the kids, I am not sure. Is it instinct, a strong maternal instinct? I don't know, all I know is that I loved every minute of it all. I was so into it that I must have read a hundred books on how to be a good mother, how to increase your child's IQ etc and the whole motherhood thing simply consumed me...but I guess that's typical me. I get consumed by everything, by whatever I do!
Right now it's my blog. :)
"Now, thats a common act" - not sure I know what you mean... :-/
You mean many people do this? I suppose they do. Er, what?
@ Nita: Thanks for your note. I should probably put long post alert on top :-)
The reasons you cite are the reasons that I have found impossible to elicit from people. So you are exceptional in many ways.
For instance, most of us living so far from parents should know that the utility of children in respect of old age care is a fast-dwindling case of hopefulness, rather than the reality. Societal pressure - indeed expectation - is probably a great factor in many cases, but giving in to it is a highly individual thing. Maternal instinct is often cited but some of the most horrid people I have known have kids whereas some of the most affectionate and genuinely loving people have chosen not to (may be their logic is that they cannot bear to leave their children behind in this terrible world!).
That "genetic vanity" thing is my hypothesis and I deliberately word it like that because frankly for some people, one has to look and wonder "why on earth...?". Anyway it sounds mean so before I get brickbats from all sorts, I should stop.
It is interesting how you note how dreams are tempered by reality. I read a funny thing yesterday:
Le rêve est un tunnel qui passe sous la réalité. C'est un égout d'eau claire, mais c'est un égout. (The not-so-romantic translation: The dream is a tunnel that passes under reality. It is a sewer of clear water, but it is a sewer.)
Funny, eh? Cutting, definitely.
I wrote this at some 3:30am. I am sure some of this will get edited - not for length, just grammar etc in the day light. For now I need really to wake up and start my morning.
Thanks again.
In my case, sometimes, its after having my cup of coffee. :(
Voracious Blog Reader
So this was unusual for me. But the time was so odd, I gave up and went back to bed.
I wish to have my own child because somewhere in my heart I want my dad's genes in it. My dad is intelligent, practical and very hardworking, in spite of his troubled marriage knows what is it to keep the family together which in today's date even I fail to abide by it at times. I wish to have my better half's genes in them as he is the only person I've met who has patience, loving nature and he also believes in keeping a family together. My mother is a very strong lady. I believe at least some of these qualities will definitely be inherited in them.
Adopting a child is a much bigger and a conscious decision than having one's own child. In case of blood relation, the relation is defined even before you were born but in case of adoption the relation is defined after one is born. I've my own fears regarding adoption. I've read so many true stories where the adopted child still searches for his/her real parents even after realizing how much his/her adopted parents love them. This will definitely raise a question in my mind what went wrong in the upbringing of the child that he/she is still searching for their real parents.
The other fear is how will either party take towards being denied or denying certain acts and not being obeyed. In blood relation, even in anger you cannot deny the relationship but in case of adoption one can easily deny the relation be it the parent or the child and walk out of it.
I've another fear - fear which I am not sure about till I adopt a child and the child develops his/her own character. If one has watched "Kabhi Kushi Kabhi Ghum"- Amitabh B adopted SRK and then he accepts him to obey the family traditions and values. But when SRK marries a girl against his wishes, he shuts him out of his house and life as well.
But ofcourse, you cannot say that these fears are applicable everywhere. It all depends on the attitude, behavior or nature of parents and the adopted child. But then I'm not aware of these answers when I am adopting one. I suggest only a person with a loving heart and a forgiving one can only have the courage to adopt a child. Once my sibling asked me will I adopt a child if I'm unable to give birth, I immediately said I will fund someone's expenses and education throughout my life but I don't have a heart to adopt. I know I'm selfish but I've faced so much problems in my life that taking risks in my life as far as emotions are concerned is out of question now for me.
I feel our generation should relook at adoption. I have written abotu it lots of times, and I am afraid I am going to jinx it.
Anyways, why the hell people are so afraid of it, more importantly why is it so difficult to adopt.
I agree with your take on women being suspected mostly for inability to conceive, If you sit through a meeting of elders in family, you almost turn insane, and I am really surprised that its mostly women in the family who suspect women.
Of course, I cannot argue with any of the points you raise, but some things you say do reinforce my point about "genetic vanity".
I also think you are being naive if you think "In blood relation, even in anger you cannot deny the relationship but in case of adoption one can easily deny the relation be it the parent or the child and walk out of it". I daresay you need to see it once yourself :-)
You say: "I’ve read so many true stories where the adopted child still searches for his/her real parents even after realizing how much his/her adopted parents love them.". Having a child is above all an act of unselfishness. And having seen a lot of the world, I can say with confidence that plenty of biological children turn their backs on parents too.
Curiously I made a point about step-parents in passing. Given such strong views about biological children, your views are on step-children and step-parents are something I would like to hear about.
Thanks for reading.
@ Lucia: Thanks for your note. DO share some of your reflections :-)
@ Rambler: Thanks. Why not adoption? See the remark by Anonymous above for a range of reasons.
As for sitting with elders, thank God I do not have to and when I do, I am not a standard issue Indian to sit through it quietly. I speak up when I see something patently wrong.
@ Ryan: Thanks for your note. Since I am not aware of any statistics of this nature, I framed your comment as a view of poverty.
It will be great if you can share some of those stats so I can understand your perspective better. Because at the moment, I do not know what you are trying to say.
However I do think universally, the daughters' progeny neither carries the family name forward nor can be "claimed" for any economic value.
If you come back and share some of these statistics, it will be great. Thanks.
Those who want kids, by all means have them, or adopt them. Some should never have kids - after all, abused and, sadly, murdered children are overwhelmingly committed by mothers, aren't they?
My own mother hated being a mother. She is wonderful in many ways, but I think if birth control was easily available in her day, she may have been childless herself. But my father just loved parenting - doted on us, taught us, supervised us. Natural born Father.
At least it is no longer a shameful thing to say you don't want children, at least here. Maybe in my next life, I will have some maternal instincts.
Thanks
I have to repeat what I said in Nita's blog that if a 100% of the women of a society (reductio ad absurdum) choose to be surrogate mothers, so effing what? Why should this be anyone's business? This call to legislate human behavior is another example of social engineering, another feature of a control State, acting holier than ever before.
My point of debate is if people claim to have those maternal instincts, why are they so narrowly focused on biological children? Even at great cost to their own health? As a dominantly 'ask why' kind of person, I am eternally curious and my general conclusion is that people fear asking themselves this question for fear of exposing their social conditioning and their own prejudices.
@ Rambodoc: Thank you. All the intelligence is contained in the post so I guess it is ok if you did not click through ;-) No, seriously I try to capture the essence from the link when I cite it but keen ones can click on and read more.
I agree with the so-effing-what bit. Indeed if a 100% of women in society choose to be childless, er, no society soon, eh? :-)
By definition, regulation comes in where market forces fail to keep resource allocation optimal or where rents realisation can sort the "problem" of inoptimality. Nita's contention is that where information (or economic) asymmetries exist i.e. the woman is poor and uneducated and does not understand the risks of repeat pregnancies, regulation should exist for the protection of the vendor (not the emptor). This situation is not dissimilar to repetitive selling of blood or selling of organs, except repeat pregnancy can be more long drawn and physically and emotionally draining.
Thanks for reading.
Except when it comes to torture and capital punishment. ;) :D
//Indeed if a 100% of women in society choose to be childless, er, no society soon, eh?//
I'm not so sure. Science has an annoying way of coming up with solutions. So we would probably have human beings capable of spontaneous reproduction (the "swayambhu" concept. Or they could evolve to a point where they could live meaningfully well past 100, 150, 200 years. Or both.
Amit,
//...a control State, acting holier than ever before...//
(with the usual apology for not managing diacritical marks): Vous oubliez -- l'etat c'est moi; et vous, et nous, et tous ...
I have written before about the Science bits that make many things possible in this debate. See older post:
http://laviequotidienne.wordpress.com/2007/04/1...
There are other elements in social constructivist argument, of course, of how Science and its miscommunication is informing (or misinforming?) young women about what to expect from their biological clocks.
The assumptions in both the two above threads are very different, which is what my comment alluded to.
Thanks.
Er...Vivek. My knowledge of French is limited to "Voulez-vous coucher avec moi?" (no that's not an invitation) ;) ("You forgot - and me, and you and we all??" something like that?)
I was actually pulling rambo d's leg regarding another comment on another post.
Thanks for your note and for sharing your views, and welcome to my blog!
I think adoption is made difficult in all countries, keeping in mind the child's welfare, which entails asking a range of what-if questions and obtaining more than satisfactory answers to them. But I do think it is nice that you have at least considered the idea.
You bring up an interesting point: the nosy relatives and neighbours. For them, alas, neither science nor regulation has any 'cure'. :-(
Thanks again.
Without any intention to broaden the horizons :-) of your French, my comment was merely a reaction to your use of the word "State". Its essence lay in the expression (attributed to Louis XIV) which I quoted, "l'etat c'est moi" (I am the State), and extended to include "... and you, and all of us ... ". Incidentally, "vous oubliez" is strictly the present tense, though in this instance I guess it is all right to translate it as the past tense. In fact it would have been more natural if I had said "n'oubliez pas [que]...".
I think the "blockquote" tag is to blame for the confusion here. "State" is rambo-d's favorite "them" (of 'us-and-them,' or rather 'me-and-them' fame), not mine. :)
I first learnt French at l'Alliance Francaise in Calcutta, from a Bengali teacher who was very good. And one of his favourite pastimes was to corner us and tell us things about comparative literature in Bengali and French! Somehow to this day, in the big classification system in my brain, Bengali and French sit snuggled together. No rhyme or reason and never explored any linguistic basis for it either.. :-)
Your slotting of Bangla and French together strikes me as apt for another reason, too. I admire the native speakers of both languages for their pride in their own tongues, and the way they coolly put other-language imperialists (meaning Hindi and English respectively) in their place.
There are possibly reasons for that lack of reasoning too (um, sorry if that sounds incredibly confusing...)- social conditioning that leads to us making an *assumption* instead, often at quite an early age; and the nature of the decision, specifically its total irrevocability, its often unimaginably huge and traumatic life-changing impact, which we know will be massive but have very little idea how to plan for in advance. In other words, we often regard it as almost an essential, obvious ambition, like finding a life-partner or wanting to have a satisfying job; and before doing it, we are extremely ignorant about how almost everything will be after we have done it.
Both of those definitely applied to me!
But a third reason for the lack of reasoning is the apparently very high satisfaction levels among those who have taken the plunge, including those who hardly planned it at all. They nearly always say it enriched their life, and express positivity about their decision. This is very unusual considering everything above!
I've pondered all of the above and why it might be so quite often, as most of my close women friends from school and university are childless, in fact I'm the odd one out of my group. But they "ended up" that way due to not having life-partners through their twenties and some way into their thirties, in most cases (oddly, all partnered up after then. No idea how totally unrepresentative this bunch may be.)
Anyway, I don't have any answers about why or when or whether, and I out this down to the massiveness of the subject, with all its implications. Certainly, how and whether one parents arouses stronger (and potentially more divisive) emotions among people than most other subjects I can think of with the possible exception of war-politics.
All very interesting though- thanks for directing me to this post!
http://web.aanet.com.au/cmcdonald/Articles/The%...
I personally think it's almost all society that builds into women's minds that we are worth nothing if we do not choose to mother a child. It's the way we force women to continue to do something that is quite hard work and thankless when they now have the option to do other things. I think that many parents just say it's wonderful because the peer pressure is such that saying "yeah, don't really like it, wish I hadn't have done it, would rather not make that mistake again" is just impossible!
As a side point, you've got a great blog here, and a good addition to my blogroll. :)